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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptics own

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show number 91 for the 16th of july 2010

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very jet-lagged Richard Saunders here

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with you once again france in the

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australia what a wonderful time we had

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Joe benim who Rachel dumb up runs are

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given myself at the amazing meeting in

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Las Vegas and I'm pleased to say that we

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have a swag full of great interviews for

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you over the next couple of months

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today's interview King off is none other

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than Ben Radford the mystery

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investigator the psychic investigator

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them this is cryptozoology let me get

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that right the cryptozoology

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investigator and conducting this

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interview today is dr. rachel dunlop

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that's followed by dr. rachy reports sit

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down hang on to your teeth have a stiff

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drink you won't believe this dr. Reggie

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reports Meryl Dorie and the Australian

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vaccination network there has rachy says

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their house of cards is collapsing

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around them really good report a really

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good update on the status with the

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Australian vaccination network who I

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think I need another cup of coffee to

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power on at the moment so i'll run away

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and do that and you enjoy the skeptic

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I'm dr. Richie and this week I present

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our very first interview from Tam 8 in

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Las Vegas and it's talking monsters and

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cryptozoology with Ben Radford man has a

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background in psychology and now spends

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his time traveling the world

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investigating ghosts monsters and other

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strange creatures in this interview then

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tells us about his investigations into

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two vampires the goats sucking

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chupacabras and the linky cheery and he

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also talks about his investigations into

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the doughnut eating ghosts of the Kimo

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theater here's Ben Radford talking to us

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Thank You Reggie hi I've been referred

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welcome to the skeptic side how are you

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I'm doing well thank you yeah I know you

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because you are well known for your work

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in investigating the paranormal in

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particular well ghosties and haunted

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houses and stuff like that tell us for

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our listeners who don't know about your

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background can you give us a little bit

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of a history of what you do and sure um

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yeah I my my educational background is

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in psychology and that really helps to

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inform me when I'm doing investigations

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into basically all man over the

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paranormal because oftentimes you know

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the evidence that's being put forth for

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these things comes down to eyewitness if

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it comes down to anecdotes it's you know

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a person says I saw something or I

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experienced something right I don't know

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what this is I'll you know sometimes of

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course you'll have photographs or EVPs

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or a thing like that but for the most

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part the bulk of it of these the

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evidence for these things is his

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personal experience and so that's sort

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of the approach that I take is the more

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sort of psychological try the

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psychological angle trying to understand

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what are people seeing what are they

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experiencing and so I've done a wide

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variety of investigations over the last

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10 12 years

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my new book scientific colonel

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investigation is recently out everything

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from Lake Monsters to Bigfoot to

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psychics you know remote viewers

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miracles Bigfoot chupacabra as I've

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recently finished a big book on the the

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Hispanic vampire goatsucker thingy

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that's supposedly out there so that

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should be coming out in March can you

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tell us a bit more what is it cheek a

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couple would you be good basic vet early

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in the morning ticket couch aashiqui

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cheeky wat SI um the chupacabra is

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probably the world's third known best

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third best no monster after Bigfoot and

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Nessie but it curiously enough it's only

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been around for about 15 years it

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basically appeared in Puerto Rico 1995

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there's actually a couple different

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different descriptions and they're

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remarkably different which to me

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suggests that people are seeing

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different things not not one thing that

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has a wide variety of descriptions on it

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but typically the main description is a

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creature that stands about four to five

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feet tall has long spikes down the back

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has sort of alien esque eyes for

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wraparound eyes either red or black or

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dark grey eyes and its main

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characteristic is that it suck it sucks

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goats all right yes go sucking this is

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not a sexual thing this is blood sucking

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so I just look just be very clear about

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that because we were all thinking thats

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right well I know I some people would go

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there but yes and I you know this is

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audiosyn everyone has that imagination i

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I just I just thrown it so you can you

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can edit this however you want but um no

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this is not going everybody they

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basically that the the the word

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chupacabra in Spanish means goat sucker

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okay and and goat sucker is referring to

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blood as you might imagine so the

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chupacabra is basically a vampire it's

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an updated version of the European

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vampire and

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in my book I sort of trace the the

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folklore and the entomology of

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entomology of vampires from the say the

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17 1800s and then you sort of look for

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example at Latin American vampires and

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stories vampires and also in East Africa

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there's a there's actually a vampire

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that I investigated in La Paz Bolivia

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and it's called a leaky cheering and

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it's a it's an Aymara word and the leaky

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cheery means that stealer and there's

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actually an entity that many people in

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the Andes believe stocks the the

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highlands in the Andes in them in Latin

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America that will steal your fat it has

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like a mesmerizing ability to like

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freeze you or paralyze you basically

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hypnotize you and you will wake up and

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you'll have slits than your side it will

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actually extract your fat and the story

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goes that with the fat it actually sells

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it to American companies specifically

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American companies while also Western

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European but most American companies for

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use in cosmetics machinery things like

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that well yes it's a fat stealer so

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that's one but and of course you know in

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the Andes you have to understand that it

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sounds silly to some people like well

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stealing fat like hey I got some extra

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you know but I made it that because it's

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freezing exactly exactly that that's

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something that a lot of people miss is

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that you know up in the in the highlands

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of the Andes I mean it's damn cold and

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yeah fat you know what helps you survive

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and so and so in some ways you have to

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look at this as a metaphorical thing and

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it's extracting something that the

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natives need to survive and you cannot

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you can go into the sort of folklore of

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the ways in which Latin Americans

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specifically have been have had the

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resources extracted from them you look

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at look at they could you still yeah and

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so this is sort of an extended metaphor

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of that and so people people pretty

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clean Puerto Rico there is a strong anti

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US government sentiment because they

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don't have stated their possession of

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the US but they're not an actual state

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and so among many Puerto Ricans they

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feel that that the u.s. sort of takes

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what they want and leaves the rest

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and there's a lot more to it basically

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that there's there's a pre-existing

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notion of vampiric entity in Puerto

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Rican culture and polka and in the

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Caribbean in general but how people

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actually say in this entity that you

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described it's not completely metaphor

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of chupacabras no no the one you totally

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do that stealing yeah um know that they

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there is if you look at the folklore

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behind it typically it's considered to

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be it's either a local or it's a or it's

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a person or the local or a local working

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for an American basically so you know

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that there's always a connection its

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American kinase and then yeah there's a

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there's a lot of xenophobia connected to

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an affair of like oh my god you know

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whether they're doing to us um in some

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cases they're said to be tall white

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figures sort of almost ghostly long

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fingers they may have long knives they

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will pull out sometimes they're said to

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drive around in bands and they will and

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there's actually another variation

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called Sokka ojos which means I Steelers

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in Peru and there's there's people to

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believe that these leaky cheese or

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psycho psycho hose will kidnap young

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children and snatch out their eyes no

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group you know surgically remove their

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eyes again where do they go they go to

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Americans they go to Europeans and this

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actually ties into the urban the urban

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legend of the organ snatching yeah you

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know wake up in a bath of ice with your

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kidneys go on that cut exactly and so

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they're so it's actually shooting how

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these things tie together you have the

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folklore you have the ethnography and

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and the sort of the cultural stuff so

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but i'm interested in have people saying

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this like you described what they look

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like oh I figure I'm so is that from

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hallucinations or is that just for that

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sort of story well that well what

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happened with you you have to understand

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that again because leaky cheery it's

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really considered a profession that it's

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not it's not as separate it's not like a

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demon it's not a ghost it is a person

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it's a really good blinky tutor could be

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you me or any of us you're right so it's

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it's a it's an occupation it's

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not a is not a type sanitizer paranormal

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kind of it not among these people

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because they believe they believe this

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exists in fact there have been cases I

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was actually for researching my book

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earlier this year I was reading up on

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cases where locals have been attacked

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have been accused of being leaked a tree

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and and killed and they're all right

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people been lynched well in the Andes

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and I think mostly in Bolivia where just

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some and again this goes back directly

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to like the witch trials where you know

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if something bad happens you know some

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there's farmers calves are stillborn

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crops where else who did it if that

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crazy lady down the road yeah and you

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had this the scapegoating witchcraft

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thing and the exact same thing happens

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in in in a different context with it

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with the leaky cheery yeah and the other

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vampires in Latin America so the other

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vampire you were talking about the first

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one what was that the chupacabra yeah

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can we go back to the driver said to

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tell me a bit more about that so that's

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that cause Puerto Rican yes it's a

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dormir it emerged in in 1995 Puerto Rico

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there was something weird that was

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attacking animals goats chickens cattle

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what have you but nobody had seen it no

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but every now and then animals would

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appear that we're apparently mutilated

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or had blood drain from them but nobody

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ever seen quite it caused it until the

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second week of August in 95 when a woman

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named madeline tolentino said that she

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00:11:32,509 --> 00:11:30,989
saw what later became known as the

272
00:11:34,039 --> 00:11:32,519
chupacabra and I actually interviewed I

273
00:11:35,629 --> 00:11:34,049
went to Puerto Rico about a month ago

274
00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:35,639
and I tracked her down and interviewed

275
00:11:41,210 --> 00:11:38,040
her for the first time since 95 okay and

276
00:11:44,629 --> 00:11:41,220
she says that she saw a creature that

277
00:11:46,609 --> 00:11:44,639
was about 34 feet tall it had spikes

278
00:11:50,359 --> 00:11:46,619
down the barrack heads for our own eyes

279
00:11:52,129 --> 00:11:50,369
a very alien ask some depictions show

280
00:11:53,809 --> 00:11:52,139
like long sharp claws but she actually

281
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:53,819
told me that that that's wrong but had

282
00:11:58,579 --> 00:11:56,610
five fingers and it sort of its were

283
00:12:00,289 --> 00:11:58,589
left up from where I she saw just

284
00:12:02,659 --> 00:12:00,299
outside the window outside of her

285
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:02,669
mother's gonna see they told no no no

286
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:04,410
this was a really short thing alright um

287
00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:07,290
and then it sort of jumped off into this

288
00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:09,710
or superhumanly jumped off into the

289
00:12:16,930 --> 00:12:14,150
the woods nearby and her description

290
00:12:18,610 --> 00:12:16,940
became known became basically the

291
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:18,620
world's best known depiction the

292
00:12:22,930 --> 00:12:20,690
chupacabra because she she consulted

293
00:12:25,390 --> 00:12:22,940
with a UFO researcher by the name of

294
00:12:29,650 --> 00:12:25,400
Jorge Martine in Latin America and in

295
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:29,660
Puerto Rico and he he drew for her based

296
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:31,610
upon her description and then send out

297
00:12:36,250 --> 00:12:34,010
on the internet and so if you google do

298
00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:36,260
google image search for chupacabra most

299
00:12:41,230 --> 00:12:38,710
of them you'll return this sort of

300
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:41,240
creature you know the long fingers in

301
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:42,770
the claws and spikes on the back which

302
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:45,170
is based on her her description so

303
00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:46,880
that's that but so that that's one

304
00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:47,900
version that you back opera but

305
00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:50,990
interestingly enough if you look at

306
00:12:54,490 --> 00:12:52,520
where people actually started claiming

307
00:12:56,740 --> 00:12:54,500
to find chupacabra bodies i mean there

308
00:12:59,080 --> 00:12:56,750
are people i met a woman in cuero texas

309
00:13:01,060 --> 00:12:59,090
outside of san antonio she's got it

310
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:01,070
she's got the severed head of what she

311
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:02,930
thinks is a Jewpacabra in her freezer i

312
00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:05,360
think it's probably a coyote the DNA

313
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:09,020
tests suggested the coyote but she she's

314
00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:10,970
been instituted macabre see you but but

315
00:13:15,970 --> 00:13:13,630
the problem is that it's that there's a

316
00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:15,980
different night and day between the

317
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:17,570
thing the metal and toned he know I

318
00:13:23,650 --> 00:13:21,440
witnessed in kenova nespa rico in 95 and

319
00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:23,660
this dead mangy chupacabra I mean

320
00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:25,340
they're they're not the same thing at

321
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:28,790
all but what you find is that is that

322
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:31,010
with chupacabra specifically is that

323
00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:33,050
people will build label anything weird

324
00:13:37,330 --> 00:13:35,270
chupacabra there's a dead raccoon that's

325
00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:37,340
Jewpacabra there's a mangy coyote must

326
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:39,620
be chupacabra I say anyway I that was

327
00:13:43,060 --> 00:13:41,510
like about a five-year investigation and

328
00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:43,070
I did a bunch of stuff on that but I'm

329
00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:44,660
also tell us about the investigation I

330
00:13:48,130 --> 00:13:46,460
mean what did you find what did you

331
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:48,140
actually see the TAC animals so she just

332
00:13:50,950 --> 00:13:49,760
saw this you know no no no that's what's

333
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:50,960
interesting is that is that the

334
00:13:55,150 --> 00:13:53,600
eyewitnesses everyone sort of it brings

335
00:13:59,260 --> 00:13:55,160
a different piece of the pie to it so

336
00:14:01,570 --> 00:13:59,270
for example she saw this weird almost

337
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:01,580
alien esque creature outside her window

338
00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:03,770
she never said with chupacabra I mean

339
00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:05,390
she never said that is chupacabra she's

340
00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:07,160
like why I saw something weird but what

341
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:09,110
happened was that the story got out and

342
00:14:12,670 --> 00:14:10,970
again it got out within the context of a

343
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:12,680
UFO research I mean that one of the main

344
00:14:15,730 --> 00:14:14,090
people that are promoting the whole idea

345
00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:15,740
what she would cover in Puerto Rico were

346
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:17,550
UFO people who

347
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:20,079
with all due respect or not know their

348
00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:22,930
scholarship and researching abilities

349
00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:26,320
right and so there was so the the image

350
00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:28,029
that emerged of the chupacabra was

351
00:14:31,769 --> 00:14:29,740
tinged with conspiracy theories it was

352
00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:31,779
continued with just you know bad

353
00:14:37,319 --> 00:14:34,510
research this than the other so it was

354
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:37,329
really other people that said oh he must

355
00:14:41,550 --> 00:14:38,880
have seen the chupacabra and she's like

356
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:41,560
okay I mean if you want to that's like

357
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:43,570
if you want to go through it so so it so

358
00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:45,519
it's this really interesting folkloric

359
00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:47,980
amalgamation of one person citing

360
00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:49,480
another person's assumption another

361
00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:51,670
person you know one person finds you

362
00:14:55,139 --> 00:14:53,380
know a dog that they think for whatever

363
00:14:56,699 --> 00:14:55,149
reasons drain the blood you know two

364
00:14:58,920 --> 00:14:56,709
weeks later someone sees something weird

365
00:15:00,509 --> 00:14:58,930
you know halfway you know halfway cross

366
00:15:02,009 --> 00:15:00,519
island and then someone else do

367
00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:02,019
something everyone say oh well it must

368
00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:05,800
be one big thing no no it's not

369
00:15:08,579 --> 00:15:07,060
necessary our own thing you have to look

370
00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:08,589
at each individual case not just sort of

371
00:15:12,090 --> 00:15:10,420
lump them together into this disk you

372
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:12,100
said how do you go about investigating

373
00:15:15,810 --> 00:15:13,510
something like that been like I mean

374
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:15,820
because you don't have access to the

375
00:15:21,780 --> 00:15:18,730
dead animals on occasion you do you know

376
00:15:23,009 --> 00:15:21,790
okay yeah in the case of the yo again it

377
00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:23,019
depends on which Jewpacabra are you

378
00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:23,980
talking about if you're talking about

379
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:26,470
the one in Puerto Rico no one's ever

380
00:15:30,449 --> 00:15:28,390
found them I mean there's been i

381
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:30,459
wouldn'ta sightings and especially mrs.

382
00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:33,279
mrs. Toland Tino's but no one's found a

383
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:35,470
dead body the only place they found dead

384
00:15:40,259 --> 00:15:38,320
bodies or in places mostly in Texas

385
00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:40,269
there's been handful of chupacabras

386
00:15:44,460 --> 00:15:42,940
there but when you find the dead bodies

387
00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:44,470
when you actually have a specimen to

388
00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:46,750
examine and you do DNA testing on them

389
00:15:52,199 --> 00:15:49,420
the results are invariably it's a canid

390
00:15:53,970 --> 00:15:52,209
it's either a dog a coyote that's what

391
00:15:56,220 --> 00:15:53,980
those are we knew that this is not

392
00:15:58,079 --> 00:15:56,230
rocket scientist as genetic science and

393
00:16:00,840 --> 00:15:58,089
this is what they are so in the case of

394
00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:00,850
Madeleine tolentino citing my main

395
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:03,640
contribution to it was I was actually

396
00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:06,850
able to identify where the chupacabra

397
00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:08,920
came from because this is one of the was

398
00:16:12,449 --> 00:16:10,180
is one of the main mysteries that you've

399
00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:12,459
covered because you know you look for

400
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:14,649
example at the Loch Ness monster you

401
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:17,050
know people have been claiming to see

402
00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:19,570
the things that since the 30s basically

403
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:21,880
in the case of Bigfoot the Bigfoot

404
00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:23,199
believers like to sort of say oh well

405
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:24,820
the natives knew about this thing you

406
00:16:27,970 --> 00:16:25,170
know

407
00:16:30,110 --> 00:16:27,980
whatever else in the case of chupacabras

408
00:16:33,199 --> 00:16:30,120
pretty much everybody admits that it

409
00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:33,209
appeared I don't know where 95 now as

410
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:35,670
you know animals don't appear out of

411
00:16:40,990 --> 00:16:37,019
nowhere I mean do you do is you just

412
00:16:43,639 --> 00:16:41,000
don't oh there's this new kangaroo yeah

413
00:16:46,370 --> 00:16:43,649
doesn't happen called evolution yeah

414
00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:46,380
yeah I've heard about yeah I'm epical

415
00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:49,680
but but but the my real contribution was

416
00:16:54,410 --> 00:16:52,649
trying so you know my challenge to serve

417
00:16:56,050 --> 00:16:54,420
really bring the pieces of the mystery

418
00:16:58,189 --> 00:16:56,060
together where it was to figure out

419
00:17:01,129 --> 00:16:58,199
where did the chupacabra come from

420
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:01,139
because again it came from somewhere at

421
00:17:06,620 --> 00:17:04,559
a very specific time and so what I did

422
00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:06,630
was able to do was I was able to

423
00:17:12,169 --> 00:17:10,049
actually find where she wear metal and

424
00:17:13,939 --> 00:17:12,179
tolentino got this image of the

425
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:13,949
chupacabra we find and what I found was

426
00:17:20,510 --> 00:17:16,530
that she had seen a science fiction film

427
00:17:23,299 --> 00:17:20,520
oh this gets interesting okay yeah she

428
00:17:25,610 --> 00:17:23,309
had seen a movie called species oh that

429
00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:25,620
came out in 1995 Raleigh came out in

430
00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:27,390
Puerto Rico a month before her sighting

431
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:30,900
right and in my in my new book and this

432
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:32,730
is actually the last chapter in the book

433
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:36,210
chapter 13 I I can I showed depictions

434
00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:38,280
of her version chupacabra and is still

435
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:39,900
from the film and there a birch

436
00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:41,970
identical piece by piece by piece by

437
00:17:46,340 --> 00:17:43,980
piece they're on a dozen or so different

438
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:46,350
criterion the spikes down the back the

439
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:48,360
eyes the shape I mean it's right there

440
00:17:53,390 --> 00:17:51,330
yeah and in fact she admitted that she

441
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:53,400
saw the movie so he said this is a

442
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:54,960
fascinating case in wearing which you

443
00:17:59,600 --> 00:17:57,600
have an eyewitness who put forward the

444
00:18:03,169 --> 00:17:59,610
most that the best-known image of the

445
00:18:06,289 --> 00:18:03,179
chupacabra in history and where did she

446
00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:06,299
get it she saw yes your sub movie called

447
00:18:11,539 --> 00:18:09,299
species and and and she brought and it

448
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:11,549
gets even more interesting because if

449
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:14,790
you look at the origin stories there

450
00:18:18,289 --> 00:18:17,010
there's two main theories above where

451
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:18,299
the chip about where the chupacabra came

452
00:18:22,730 --> 00:18:20,970
from some people believe that it's an

453
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:22,740
extraterrestrial it's an alien that came

454
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:24,480
down with rods and then other people

455
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:26,130
believe that it's the results of a top

456
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:28,770
secret US government experiments Jack

457
00:18:34,610 --> 00:18:31,230
experiments the Cortez conspiracy stuff

458
00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:34,620
exactly now in the case of species in

459
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:36,360
the film that i rewatch it a couple

460
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:36,940
times

461
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:40,090
after discovering this the alien in the

462
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:43,210
film is both an extraterrestrial alien

463
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:45,840
and the results of a top secret US

464
00:18:52,830 --> 00:18:50,530
experiment I mean this if the parallels

465
00:18:55,530 --> 00:18:52,840
could not be clearer oh wait I was like

466
00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:55,540
oh my god this is it's a perfect match

467
00:18:59,550 --> 00:18:57,970
yeah and so so what's fascinating to me

468
00:19:01,290 --> 00:18:59,560
is that again you have this animal this

469
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:01,300
thistle you know again the world's third

470
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:05,170
best known monster that came from a

471
00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:08,770
Hollywood film film yeah yeah and and I

472
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:10,270
mean that's not says I mean that doesn't

473
00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:11,830
answer the entire mystery of the

474
00:19:17,010 --> 00:19:13,750
chupacabra but but you know her original

475
00:19:19,170 --> 00:19:17,020
site of 95 is undeniably the most

476
00:19:20,370 --> 00:19:19,180
significant event in a hole hit him

477
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:20,380
thats that's what launched it that's

478
00:19:23,550 --> 00:19:21,760
that's where the people got and of

479
00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:23,560
course after her image got out other

480
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:25,150
people I might have seen something like

481
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:27,310
that you know yeah maybe as you know she

482
00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:29,770
had the sort of contagion effect because

483
00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:31,030
that's interesting because the whole

484
00:19:35,550 --> 00:19:33,400
sort of correct me if I'm wrong but the

485
00:19:38,610 --> 00:19:35,560
whole kind of depiction of the aliens to

486
00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:38,620
like the greys know the tall skinny

487
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:41,470
aliens with the black yo eyes didn't

488
00:19:46,170 --> 00:19:43,810
that start appearing around the time

489
00:19:47,490 --> 00:19:46,180
that alien movie started happening in

490
00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:47,500
Hollywood as well yeah they were talking

491
00:19:50,790 --> 00:19:49,030
of fifties yeah there's an interesting

492
00:19:52,110 --> 00:19:50,800
correlation in fact it was funny

493
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:52,120
interesting when I when I reinterview

494
00:19:58,350 --> 00:19:56,410
her missing tolentino last month she she

495
00:19:59,910 --> 00:19:58,360
actually said well actually looked more

496
00:20:02,790 --> 00:19:59,920
like a different alien she said it

497
00:20:05,340 --> 00:20:02,800
looked like et so her references keep

498
00:20:07,290 --> 00:20:05,350
going back to Hollywood me about about

499
00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:07,300
about aliens yeah which is just

500
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:11,020
fascinating to me but in you know so so

501
00:20:15,090 --> 00:20:12,400
there's there's definitely correlation

502
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:15,100
in fact uh I I found a couple other

503
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:17,230
cases in which in the case of Loch Ness

504
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:19,090
monster and also Daniel Loxton did some

505
00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:21,730
good research on in skeptic magazine on

506
00:20:26,070 --> 00:20:24,070
the Thetis Lake Monster and it's kind of

507
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:26,080
a long story but basically people will

508
00:20:32,370 --> 00:20:28,690
be in both cases and others people were

509
00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:32,380
eyewitnesses were reporting things as in

510
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:34,390
real-life actual experience i saw this

511
00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:36,610
that they had seen in movies oh I mean

512
00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:38,590
there's no questioning it it's a proven

513
00:20:42,690 --> 00:20:39,940
fact that that's where they got the

514
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:42,700
image yeah and so you know my suggestion

515
00:20:47,629 --> 00:20:45,450
that the tolentino

516
00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:47,639
could have and probably did almost

517
00:20:51,289 --> 00:20:49,590
certainly did you know translate

518
00:20:53,539 --> 00:20:51,299
something they saw a movie into real

519
00:20:55,730 --> 00:20:53,549
life this is not wild speculation this

520
00:20:57,799 --> 00:20:55,740
is asking for it happen to laws yeah

521
00:20:59,899 --> 00:20:57,809
yeah and you know it's not it's not

522
00:21:02,269 --> 00:20:59,909
they're lying I mean again I go back to

523
00:21:03,950 --> 00:21:02,279
the psychologist audit yeah a ride yeah

524
00:21:06,379 --> 00:21:03,960
I mean I go back to my background in

525
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:06,389
psychology and my sumption is not that

526
00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:09,210
they're lying or they're crazy i mean i

527
00:21:12,620 --> 00:21:11,190
SAT with i spent four hours with her and

528
00:21:14,509 --> 00:21:12,630
she's a very nice woman she's very

529
00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:14,519
preventable I don't have no reason to

530
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:16,980
doubt her credibility my assumption is

531
00:21:20,810 --> 00:21:18,570
that she just did something that that we

532
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:20,820
all do which is she misunderstood or she

533
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:23,130
misperceived she saw something to

534
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:24,690
remember maybe maybe the movie that

535
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:27,330
she'd seen a day or two a week earlier

536
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:29,250
helped fill in I don't know what

537
00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:31,620
happened but you know you got to go back

538
00:21:35,149 --> 00:21:33,240
to Occam's razor what's more likely is

539
00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:35,159
it more likely that she just happened to

540
00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:37,620
see a monster that looked almost exactly

541
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:40,590
like you know a mantra was in it you

542
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:43,440
know in a hit film at the time or that a

543
00:21:47,299 --> 00:21:45,690
complete coincidence well it's obvious

544
00:21:48,919 --> 00:21:47,309
been there's a parallel universe filled

545
00:21:50,629 --> 00:21:48,929
with alien creatures from Hollywood that

546
00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:50,639
we aren't only sometimes we're able to

547
00:21:56,299 --> 00:21:52,380
see that would be my assumption yet yeah

548
00:21:58,519 --> 00:21:56,309
I like your significant one you know it

549
00:21:59,840 --> 00:21:58,529
was one of those where there was so much

550
00:22:03,080 --> 00:21:59,850
when I was doing the research out there

551
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:03,090
was so much misinformation myths and

552
00:22:07,129 --> 00:22:05,250
[\h__\h] it was remarkable trying to

553
00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:07,139
plow through it because you know in most

554
00:22:12,409 --> 00:22:10,529
investigations you have at least

555
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:12,419
somebody who's done some half-ass

556
00:22:16,639 --> 00:22:14,159
research in there in the case of

557
00:22:18,830 --> 00:22:16,649
Jewpacabra oddly enough and I don't I

558
00:22:20,750 --> 00:22:18,840
don't say this effort I don't pride but

559
00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:20,760
I was the first skeptical investigator

560
00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:23,700
to really look at this I find it kind of

561
00:22:30,139 --> 00:22:27,110
annoying frankly um what that maybe we

562
00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:30,149
did it falls to me to do this stuff I

563
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:31,860
mean I don't mind doing it I'm you know

564
00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:34,320
I'm good at it but I you know oftentimes

565
00:22:40,580 --> 00:22:38,700
I'm like really didn't nobody else yeah

566
00:22:42,169 --> 00:22:40,590
because I can't hurt her interview and

567
00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:42,179
worship for example where she mentioned

568
00:22:47,299 --> 00:22:44,220
that she'd seen the movie species that

569
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:47,309
was published in 96 oh I miss the

570
00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:48,809
interview where she said yeah in the

571
00:22:52,129 --> 00:22:50,340
movie yeah I mean it's like you know I

572
00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:52,139
mean I I dug it up and I put the pieces

573
00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:54,360
together but it was all there

574
00:22:58,760 --> 00:22:56,520
you know I mean but it's just that you

575
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:58,770
know as is often the case and you know

576
00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,200
this as well is that it's not so much of

577
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:03,000
these are great unsolved mysteries

578
00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:05,010
that's just that no one had bothered to

579
00:23:08,270 --> 00:23:06,390
do more than a half asked you know

580
00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:08,280
cut-and-paste job and and nobody had

581
00:23:12,260 --> 00:23:10,200
done in real investigation and so that's

582
00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:12,270
that's what I bring to it I mean I don't

583
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:14,220
bring any I don't claim to bring any any

584
00:23:18,380 --> 00:23:15,960
particular level of genius or brilliance

585
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:18,390
to it but I'm you know I'm willing to

586
00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:20,130
look at it open-minded and put in the

587
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:22,140
time in the effort and unfortunately

588
00:23:26,570 --> 00:23:24,240
most people aren't so how do you go

589
00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:26,580
about putting together an investigation

590
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:28,200
for example okay actually can we talk

591
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:31,200
about it in the context of the haunted

592
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:32,850
cinema that you spoke about at Dragon

593
00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:34,890
Con last year oh the Kimo theatre yeah

594
00:23:39,310 --> 00:23:37,140
yeah sure yeah I mean that that was an

595
00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:39,320
interesting case we that was basically a

596
00:23:43,910 --> 00:23:42,270
forensic historical research case yeah

597
00:23:45,650 --> 00:23:43,920
in a nutshell I mean that was the the

598
00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:45,660
Kimo theatre ghost investigation and

599
00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:48,390
that's been since published in four in

600
00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:50,160
14 times and also in skeptical Inquirer

601
00:23:57,230 --> 00:23:53,150
magazine and in that case there was a um

602
00:24:00,170 --> 00:23:57,240
there was supposedly a young boy whose

603
00:24:02,270 --> 00:24:00,180
ghost like donuts and if you didn't

604
00:24:05,150 --> 00:24:02,280
leave donuts for the good he would he

605
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:05,160
would ruin plays and performances and it

606
00:24:07,940 --> 00:24:06,930
the the theatre is called the Kimo

607
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:07,950
theatre it's in downtown Albuquerque

608
00:24:11,930 --> 00:24:10,410
where I live in New Mexico and I'd heard

609
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:11,940
something about it when I was growing up

610
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:13,530
my not when I was a real chocolate well

611
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:15,690
as a growing up little later and and

612
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:17,970
again the idea was that the active a

613
00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:19,470
shrine there so that you know before

614
00:24:24,110 --> 00:24:22,020
performances cast and crew members will

615
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:24,120
string of donuts leave donuts out for

616
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:25,890
this this ghost presumably they're not

617
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:27,960
even matter now the ideas of easy if you

618
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:29,370
don't if you don't appease the ghosts

619
00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:33,600
bad things happen yeah yeah so this is

620
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:37,140
the story and the main one is that is

621
00:24:42,260 --> 00:24:39,330
that during a performance of Christmas

622
00:24:45,050 --> 00:24:42,270
Carol one time the directors this

623
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:45,060
allegedly happened in the 70s according

624
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:48,330
to one story and the the cast of Cool

625
00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:50,130
put up donuts and the directors like

626
00:24:53,780 --> 00:24:52,350
what are you donuts doing here I'm I'm

627
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:53,790
putting on a performance here get the

628
00:24:58,790 --> 00:24:56,570
thorns out he was like don't move

629
00:25:02,390 --> 00:24:58,800
he's like no no this is all [\h__\h]

630
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:02,400
take the other so they did that and sure

631
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:05,010
enough the the performance of a

632
00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:07,710
Christmas carol was ruined lights

633
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:10,500
exploded actors tripped over themselves

634
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:13,710
the objects on stage mysteriously flew

635
00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:15,570
across the stage everything that could

636
00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:17,280
go wrong in props didn't work this and

637
00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:19,260
that actress forgot their lines it was a

638
00:25:24,050 --> 00:25:22,590
ruined performance basically and of

639
00:25:25,910 --> 00:25:24,060
course afterwards the director like oh

640
00:25:27,740 --> 00:25:25,920
my god I'm so sorry see when of

641
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:27,750
supposedly bought you know four hundred

642
00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:30,090
dollars wait am all over the theater

643
00:25:35,390 --> 00:25:33,150
which had a photo that but that was the

644
00:25:37,340 --> 00:25:35,400
story and and as I researched it i found

645
00:25:40,370 --> 00:25:37,350
that there was in fact a young boy who'd

646
00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:40,380
been killed in theater so that much that

647
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:41,460
part of the story was certainly true

648
00:25:44,780 --> 00:25:42,810
because the throw out that there was

649
00:25:50,110 --> 00:25:44,790
a.m. during the performance of nabbit

650
00:25:52,790 --> 00:25:50,120
and Costello film I think in 51 or 1952

651
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:52,800
there was an explosion in the boiler

652
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:55,200
room in the it skin the lobby and and

653
00:25:59,600 --> 00:25:57,930
gives you know because of blood and

654
00:26:01,790 --> 00:25:59,610
shards and concrete everywhere and

655
00:26:03,260 --> 00:26:01,800
unfortunately the only person that was

656
00:26:07,340 --> 00:26:03,270
killed was 26 year old boy named Bobby

657
00:26:09,230 --> 00:26:07,350
Darnell and and you know he wasn't that

658
00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:09,240
killed I've tracked i did archive

659
00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:11,940
research and i tracked down the the the

660
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:13,740
newspaper report that they showed that

661
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:16,890
um and so I asked her saying that that

662
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:19,530
much of the story was certainly true but

663
00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:22,530
then the question was well you know is

664
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:24,840
the ghost actually doing this and at

665
00:26:32,660 --> 00:26:29,730
that point I needed to track down an

666
00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:32,670
eyewitness and if it was this it was the

667
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:34,860
1970s then you know presumably someone

668
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:36,450
was there might have seen it and as it

669
00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:38,820
turned out there was a technical

670
00:26:42,620 --> 00:26:40,680
director who worked there is happening

671
00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:42,630
he still there to this day and I tracked

672
00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:44,430
him down his to Weston he's still there

673
00:26:49,610 --> 00:26:46,830
he's been there for 30-some years hey

674
00:26:51,050 --> 00:26:49,620
and because you know my assumption quite

675
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:51,060
honestly going into it at when I heard

676
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:53,520
the stories it was it was made up it was

677
00:26:56,830 --> 00:26:55,290
just a you know a friend of a friend

678
00:26:59,870 --> 00:26:56,840
urban legend where outs I assume that

679
00:27:02,090 --> 00:26:59,880
that as I research it more and more it'd

680
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:02,100
be like yeah I know nothing about that

681
00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:04,350
but I talked to the technical director

682
00:27:08,050 --> 00:27:07,020
he's like yeah I was there that night he

683
00:27:10,780 --> 00:27:08,060
was there he was

684
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:10,790
Wow he saw the ghost he saw he saw him

685
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:13,130
so the stuff move around and he taught

686
00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:14,480
me describe all the things that happen

687
00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:15,500
you know that the lights and the

688
00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:17,390
explosions and this and that he's like

689
00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:21,860
yeah I mean I like wow like I I it was

690
00:27:25,420 --> 00:27:23,480
it was really is inching turn on the

691
00:27:27,730 --> 00:27:25,430
case because i went from the assuming i

692
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:27,740
didn't assume but I certainly do me to

693
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:29,150
thank this is all going to be sort of a

694
00:27:33,130 --> 00:27:31,250
another story that had nothing to an

695
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:33,140
hour first person I wouldn't account of

696
00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:37,430
that so so I talked to him and beat him

697
00:27:40,510 --> 00:27:38,750
and he actually gave me a very similar

698
00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:40,520
story to the original story I mean there

699
00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:42,230
were a couple import details that have

700
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:43,940
been changed but the first part of it

701
00:27:47,530 --> 00:27:45,200
was trying to figure out when it was

702
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:47,540
when was his performance now the

703
00:27:52,990 --> 00:27:49,130
original story was that it happened to

704
00:27:57,340 --> 00:27:53,000
think 74 75 and I prove that that

705
00:27:59,140 --> 00:27:57,350
couldn't be the case because because in

706
00:28:02,050 --> 00:27:59,150
doing some archive research I found out

707
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:02,060
that the Kimo theater in 1974 was

708
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:04,880
actually a porno theater really yeah

709
00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:07,130
kind of sex films though there was it

710
00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:08,750
there was a film called teenage

711
00:28:13,060 --> 00:28:11,900
fantasies yeah that which as you can

712
00:28:15,130 --> 00:28:13,070
imagine is somewhat different than a

713
00:28:18,610 --> 00:28:15,140
christmas carol yeah i could imagine

714
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:18,620
that yeah yeah and and so and this is

715
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:19,760
apparently not well known around

716
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:21,200
Albuquerque that there was this sort of

717
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:23,930
arrow in which you know it was some

718
00:28:28,420 --> 00:28:25,730
little blue light stone going on there

719
00:28:29,830 --> 00:28:28,430
so I quickly realized that well that

720
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:29,840
part of the story couldn't be true I

721
00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:31,610
mean that there could not be ruined from

722
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:33,680
the Christmas Carol of 74 cuz ain't

723
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:36,320
nothing going on there so talk to Dennis

724
00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:37,910
Potter who again was there that night it

725
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:40,550
not it happened in the late 80s which

726
00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:42,050
was odd to me that he couldn't he

727
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:44,030
couldn't play he can exit ladies early

728
00:28:47,650 --> 00:28:45,890
90s so he couldn't place a decade which

729
00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:47,660
is weird to me because like I think if I

730
00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:50,270
had seen a ghostly ruin performance i

731
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:52,700
think i would have some ideas well

732
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:53,840
especially because it sounds so dramatic

733
00:28:59,140 --> 00:28:56,570
yeah yeah yeah so so that seemed weird

734
00:29:00,550 --> 00:28:59,150
to me but anyway so it's sort of a long

735
00:29:02,410 --> 00:29:00,560
story and I'm sure right up at some

736
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:02,420
point people can read more details on it

737
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:04,880
online but basically at that point I had

738
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:06,770
my witness and I had the whole story and

739
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:08,690
so I began trying to figure out well who

740
00:29:12,010 --> 00:29:10,640
ought saw this I mean we have one person

741
00:29:14,430 --> 00:29:12,020
who saw he gave me his first person

742
00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:14,440
story of seeing seeing ghostly activity

743
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:16,580
but the odd thing was that I couldn't

744
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:20,890
find anyone else I tracked down that the

745
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:23,260
the the the plays director I tracked

746
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:24,970
down the guy that played Bob Cratchit I

747
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:26,950
tried to other people and I said you

748
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:28,240
know what what can you tell me about

749
00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:30,130
this ruin performance of Christmas Carol

750
00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:32,740
and like I don't know what you're

751
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:35,470
talking about it went fine oh it was

752
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:37,210
yeah it was a great performance you know

753
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:38,650
people loved it and the reviews were

754
00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:43,510
good I'm saying well hold on here I the

755
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:45,340
story is that there was the you know

756
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:47,050
they didn't leave the donuts and the the

757
00:29:50,010 --> 00:29:48,370
boys ghost you know ruined all these

758
00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:50,020
things I talked to Dennis and Dennis

759
00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:51,400
says that you know everything went to

760
00:29:58,290 --> 00:29:55,030
hell I like no I don't know what he's

761
00:29:59,190 --> 00:29:58,300
talking about so at this point that was

762
00:30:01,530 --> 00:29:59,200
another turning point in the case

763
00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:01,540
because I had I had you know several

764
00:30:06,330 --> 00:30:03,670
eyewitnesses all of whom contradicted

765
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:06,340
not just the story all of them

766
00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:08,890
contradicted my first person eyewitness

767
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:11,320
account I mean this is not just all that

768
00:30:17,220 --> 00:30:14,710
inept like no you know so at that point

769
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:17,230
it became it became more of a more vez

770
00:30:22,140 --> 00:30:19,840
torical thing so anyway in a nutshell

771
00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:22,150
and there's other stuff involved in to

772
00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:23,980
as well including amateur ghost hunters

773
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:25,900
who went in and oh they went in with

774
00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:28,240
EVPs and you know ghosts and photos and

775
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:30,940
they had found all this evidence for the

776
00:30:35,580 --> 00:30:33,310
ghost there again not bothering to do

777
00:30:37,140 --> 00:30:35,590
any research not bother to take that

778
00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:37,150
there was a decade out that never

779
00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:39,670
happened yeah yeah no that's what

780
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:41,470
happens is the ghost hunters they're so

781
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:43,120
excited about walking around the theater

782
00:30:47,730 --> 00:30:45,730
in the dark with their cameras to them

783
00:30:51,450 --> 00:30:47,740
that's the cool part yeah well let's go

784
00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:51,460
find goes and it completely escapes them

785
00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:53,230
that's not where you start yeah they

786
00:30:55,650 --> 00:30:54,580
don't start with that you start with the

787
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:55,660
research you start with you or the

788
00:31:01,770 --> 00:30:58,960
historical stuff so anyway that that was

789
00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:01,780
a in that that basically was was the end

790
00:31:04,170 --> 00:31:03,280
of the case where I sort of piece it all

791
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:04,180
together and there was just nothing

792
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:07,210
there I mean there was no what it never

793
00:31:10,890 --> 00:31:08,530
happens is that was that your conclusion

794
00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:10,900
oh yeah well it never happened I mean

795
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:12,460
the dang well there was a there was

796
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:16,090
apparently a tradition of leaving donuts

797
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:18,310
out but it wasn't sorry for anything

798
00:31:22,020 --> 00:31:20,110
connected to the ghost oh he's not

799
00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:22,030
originally it was just and i asked him

800
00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:23,470
at thats a welding imported the donuts

801
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:25,630
come from he said well you know

802
00:31:29,070 --> 00:31:27,370
sometimes the cast and crew would leave

803
00:31:30,620 --> 00:31:29,080
donuts out if they didn't finish them

804
00:31:32,330 --> 00:31:30,630
and so you know

805
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:32,340
it was just a joke you just say I will

806
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:33,600
leave donuts out for it cuz you know

807
00:31:37,340 --> 00:31:35,850
theatre lower ago so I brought quite

808
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:37,350
superstitious in the theater as well

809
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:39,210
they are very superstition but it wasn't

810
00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:40,890
connected to Bobby it wasn't connected

811
00:31:44,780 --> 00:31:42,600
to the young boy until later on so

812
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:44,790
people went back so what must the ghost

813
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:46,770
be well hell we had a gear a

814
00:31:51,530 --> 00:31:48,720
six-year-old boy killed in 1951 it must

815
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:51,540
be his good yeah and again the the the

816
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:54,090
amateur ghost hunters and amateur sino

817
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:57,090
amateur investigators investigators and

818
00:32:01,850 --> 00:31:59,760
scare quotes you know and this indicates

819
00:32:03,260 --> 00:32:01,860
where I was kind of I was shocked that

820
00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:03,270
nobody had bothered to do this this is

821
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:05,070
not rocket science if a person is

822
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:07,290
telling you this happen check it out who

823
00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:09,330
outside I mean this is this is but

824
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:10,860
there's they're so little actual

825
00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:13,050
investigation ninety-nine percent of the

826
00:32:17,780 --> 00:32:14,460
stuff that's out there on any given

827
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:17,790
subject given paranormal subject is just

828
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:19,440
rehashes of you know someone said

829
00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:22,290
something and there's very very very

830
00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:24,200
little investigation there's you know

831
00:32:28,940 --> 00:32:26,340
Richard does good stuff and you know

832
00:32:30,770 --> 00:32:28,950
Joan myself and Massimo others but but

833
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,780
you know there's a handful mock you know

834
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:32,640
yeah for every one of us there's there's

835
00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:34,650
two thousand others that are just their

836
00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:36,840
content with just making stuff up or

837
00:32:42,530 --> 00:32:39,150
cutting and pasting and there you go so

838
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:42,540
how do you as a guy back to the

839
00:32:46,370 --> 00:32:44,970
psychology again why did this guy think

840
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:46,380
that there was all this stuff happening

841
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:48,890
in the theater if it never happened well

842
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:50,910
that was a little harder to tease out

843
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:52,710
because you have to understand he

844
00:32:57,260 --> 00:32:55,140
insists that happens I mean I you know I

845
00:32:59,690 --> 00:32:57,270
never got him to admit that he was wrong

846
00:33:01,730 --> 00:32:59,700
he's like no not I know it happened I

847
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:01,740
mean I and you know what I I pressed him

848
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:03,450
say well I mean with all due respect

849
00:33:08,780 --> 00:33:07,050
dentist no one else remembers this yeah

850
00:33:09,860 --> 00:33:08,790
how do you explain the fact that you

851
00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:09,870
have talked to three or four there

852
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:12,030
people who are there that I and and you

853
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:13,710
if Dennis can find someone else who else

854
00:33:17,090 --> 00:33:15,090
was there tonight who remembers it his

855
00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:17,100
way I'd love to hear from them but you

856
00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:19,020
know I I can't spend five you're

857
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:20,520
tracking neither single person my

858
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:21,930
assumption is that with three other

859
00:33:25,490 --> 00:33:23,310
people who were there that night say it

860
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:25,500
didn't happen it probably didn't have so

861
00:33:30,050 --> 00:33:26,910
do you know if he started this whole

862
00:33:31,580 --> 00:33:30,060
story then it came from a I think

863
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,590
there's a couple different aspects you a

864
00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:34,080
part of it is that there's definitely a

865
00:33:39,860 --> 00:33:36,750
tourism aspect to it because oh yeah

866
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:39,870
every because every Halloween um one of

867
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:41,700
the local newspapers or radio shows or

868
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:42,930
TV stations does

869
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:45,810
from the Kimo theater goes for every

870
00:33:50,270 --> 00:33:47,270
Halloween so as far as I can remember

871
00:33:52,190 --> 00:33:50,280
hey everybody don't forget Halloween the

872
00:33:53,930 --> 00:33:52,200
Kimo theatre ghost here and just about

873
00:33:56,930 --> 00:33:53,940
every Halloween dennis is on TV telling

874
00:33:58,550 --> 00:33:56,940
his story um I don't mean to be cynical

875
00:34:00,170 --> 00:33:58,560
me I don't you know I believe he

876
00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:00,180
believes it I I think he's completely

877
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:01,740
sincere I don't think he's you know he's

878
00:34:06,290 --> 00:34:04,320
not making money off it I think that he

879
00:34:09,140 --> 00:34:06,300
just my guess is he just simply

880
00:34:12,530 --> 00:34:09,150
misremembered he he my guess is that

881
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:12,540
over the course of years he you know

882
00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:14,010
different things might happen here

883
00:34:17,720 --> 00:34:15,600
they're just naturally weird things and

884
00:34:18,860 --> 00:34:17,730
you swirl of them together and and put

885
00:34:22,130 --> 00:34:18,870
them within the context of this

886
00:34:24,380 --> 00:34:22,140
particular play you're such a party

887
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:24,390
pooper been lovers i I've been called

888
00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:28,410
worse imagine you have what have you

889
00:34:32,420 --> 00:34:30,060
been called I mean you must you must

890
00:34:34,190 --> 00:34:32,430
have people get in touch with you and

891
00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:34,200
say how dare you you know this did

892
00:34:41,210 --> 00:34:37,680
really happen on occasion uh you know I

893
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:41,220
again I try to my what I try to do is

894
00:34:47,930 --> 00:34:45,270
bring again bring some some some science

895
00:34:49,910 --> 00:34:47,940
to bring some flotsam some psychology to

896
00:34:51,170 --> 00:34:49,920
it and say look you know I'm not trying

897
00:34:53,870 --> 00:34:51,180
to disprove you I'm not saying you're a

898
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:53,880
bad person I'm just saying this is what

899
00:35:01,520 --> 00:34:58,320
the evidence shows in some cases in the

900
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:01,530
case of Bobby Darin off for example you

901
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:03,210
do get people who are grateful people

902
00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:06,240
who recognize the value in carrying up

903
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:08,390
the story and he said Bob we don't know

904
00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:11,850
Bobby Darnell's a family are still alive

905
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:13,710
there there now living in Florida right

906
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:16,710
and and I I actually was unable to

907
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:17,880
contact them but I sent them a letter

908
00:35:22,340 --> 00:35:19,950
saying by the way I'm researching this

909
00:35:23,210 --> 00:35:22,350
and I think that they I don't think they

910
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:23,220
want to hear from me because they

911
00:35:26,990 --> 00:35:24,810
thought I was trying to try to exploit

912
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:27,000
their their dead brother's story okay

913
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:29,010
and i wrote i said no i'm clearing this

914
00:35:33,110 --> 00:35:30,690
up you know because i think of it this

915
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:33,120
way you know if you had a brother who

916
00:35:37,220 --> 00:35:35,430
had died in the boiler explosion 1952

917
00:35:39,740 --> 00:35:37,230
your you'll elderly you know you ever

918
00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:39,750
I'll to you brother sister so there how

919
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:41,820
would you feel if everybody you know on

920
00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:43,380
all internet and these books magazines

921
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:45,150
said that your dead brother was haunting

922
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:48,210
a theater whoever you some guy gets

923
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:49,890
rolled at all to tell ya I've come to my

924
00:35:54,299 --> 00:35:51,930
data yeah alright and so pretty of

925
00:35:59,209 --> 00:35:54,309
insulting yeah so so there's

926
00:36:01,499 --> 00:35:59,219
element of it um but again I my eye I

927
00:36:04,049 --> 00:36:01,509
just do the best I can I try to give

928
00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:04,059
people my my interpretation of it and as

929
00:36:07,439 --> 00:36:05,529
I'm looking I'm not trying difficult but

930
00:36:09,029 --> 00:36:07,449
I you know this is this is why I think

931
00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:09,039
Evans and I've got to ask you this

932
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:10,630
question as a final question then have

933
00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:12,400
you ever seen any of these ghosty things

934
00:36:17,130 --> 00:36:14,049
I mean have you seen that you could get

935
00:36:18,989 --> 00:36:17,140
the good people watch it chupacabra have

936
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:18,999
you seen a look this monster I have not

937
00:36:27,809 --> 00:36:25,930
but I I wish that I had it I i haven't I

938
00:36:30,299 --> 00:36:27,819
would love to find them you know it's

939
00:36:32,579 --> 00:36:30,309
I'm the position where even though I'm

940
00:36:34,229 --> 00:36:32,589
skeptical i would love to have one and

941
00:36:37,949 --> 00:36:34,239
you know have a Bigfoot drop dead on my

942
00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:37,959
door or lie whatever either but I

943
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:40,689
haven't and I'm certainly open to the

944
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:43,359
possibility but until one shows up I'm

945
00:36:48,749 --> 00:36:46,930
skeptical so chupacabra when's that book

946
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:48,759
in a becoming a book will be published

947
00:36:53,549 --> 00:36:50,650
by university of new mexico press I

948
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:53,559
think in February of March my new book

949
00:36:58,109 --> 00:36:55,599
scientific Colonel investigation how to

950
00:37:00,809 --> 00:36:58,119
solve unexplained mysteries is freshly

951
00:37:03,299 --> 00:37:00,819
out like over the last couple weeks it's

952
00:37:04,529 --> 00:37:03,309
it's out about I think there's some

953
00:37:08,099 --> 00:37:04,539
stores in Australia that are carrying it

954
00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:08,109
it's available at radford books calm and

955
00:37:11,069 --> 00:37:09,400
around what about you have you got a

956
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:11,079
website that Alice that's can go suit oh

957
00:37:16,049 --> 00:37:13,119
yeah information most of my stuff is at

958
00:37:19,709 --> 00:37:16,059
radford books com our ad afford ebooks

959
00:37:21,569 --> 00:37:19,719
com I do have it I have the domain I

960
00:37:24,269 --> 00:37:21,579
haven't yet set it up but eventually I

961
00:37:27,299 --> 00:37:24,279
think it's chupacabra mystery dot net oh

962
00:37:29,339 --> 00:37:27,309
yeah well yeah hi it's at the trooper

963
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,349
covered ministry I'm sure redirect their

964
00:37:33,390 --> 00:37:31,599
but yeah I'm not you know I'm on

965
00:37:34,829 --> 00:37:33,400
facebook and I'm around so all right

966
00:37:36,269 --> 00:37:34,839
we've been read for thanks very much for

967
00:37:37,319 --> 00:37:36,279
taking the time to talk to us today of

968
00:37:50,579 --> 00:37:37,329
escapism

969
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:50,589
laconia you're listening to the skeptic

970
00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:01,170
it's time for dr. Rachel reports with

971
00:38:10,709 --> 00:38:06,910
dr. Rachel Dunlop hollow listeners and

972
00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:10,719
welcome to dr. Richie reports well after

973
00:38:14,579 --> 00:38:12,940
a 12 month investigation the healthcare

974
00:38:16,859 --> 00:38:14,589
Complaints Commission have finally

975
00:38:18,809 --> 00:38:16,869
handed down at their findings into the

976
00:38:22,499 --> 00:38:18,819
Australian vaccination network or the

977
00:38:24,269 --> 00:38:22,509
avian the Commission concluded that the

978
00:38:26,819 --> 00:38:24,279
avian provide misleading information

979
00:38:29,009 --> 00:38:26,829
about vaccinations and must post

980
00:38:31,910 --> 00:38:29,019
disclaimers on their website clearly

981
00:38:34,769 --> 00:38:31,920
stating that they are anti-vaccination

982
00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:34,779
the report found evidence that the avian

983
00:38:39,449 --> 00:38:37,119
misleads readers by using reliable and

984
00:38:41,849 --> 00:38:39,459
peer-reviewed literature but selectively

985
00:38:43,739 --> 00:38:41,859
quotes from it often in contradiction to

986
00:38:46,589 --> 00:38:43,749
the conclusions or the findings of the

987
00:38:48,509 --> 00:38:46,599
studies and they also found that the

988
00:38:51,269 --> 00:38:48,519
avian gives non-peer reviewed and

989
00:38:54,269 --> 00:38:51,279
anecdotal material the same authority as

990
00:38:55,620 --> 00:38:54,279
peer-reviewed literature now for a bit

991
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:55,630
of background to listeners who don't

992
00:39:00,539 --> 00:38:57,910
know there were two complaints submitted

993
00:39:02,789 --> 00:39:00,549
to the H Triple C one from the parents

994
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:02,799
of Dana McCaffrey and one from Ken

995
00:39:07,170 --> 00:39:05,410
MacLeod now the McCaffrey's complaint

996
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:07,180
was primarily concerned with harassment

997
00:39:11,759 --> 00:39:09,249
they had received and continue to

998
00:39:13,109 --> 00:39:11,769
receive from the avian following the

999
00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:13,119
death of their full week old daughter

1000
00:39:17,999 --> 00:39:16,209
from pertussis and mr. McLeod complaint

1001
00:39:19,650 --> 00:39:18,009
against the avian was primarily

1002
00:39:22,049 --> 00:39:19,660
concerned with spreading false

1003
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:22,059
information about vaccines as their

1004
00:39:26,910 --> 00:39:24,910
capacity as health educators now this

1005
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:26,920
case set a precedent for the H Triple C

1006
00:39:31,650 --> 00:39:29,440
as they have not investigated this type

1007
00:39:33,930 --> 00:39:31,660
of thing previously and what even

1008
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:33,940
uncertain if the avian fell under their

1009
00:39:38,430 --> 00:39:36,609
jurisdiction however after careful

1010
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:38,440
analyses they were able to establish

1011
00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:40,690
that indeed the avian did fall under

1012
00:39:45,329 --> 00:39:42,670
their jurisdiction and so the

1013
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:45,339
investigation proceeded now as you can

1014
00:39:49,609 --> 00:39:47,920
understand Meryl Dory is not happy about

1015
00:39:51,859 --> 00:39:49,619
these findings and in

1016
00:39:53,420 --> 00:39:51,869
ticular she's still claiming that the

1017
00:39:55,819 --> 00:39:53,430
avian does not fall under the

1018
00:39:58,549 --> 00:39:55,829
jurisdiction of the H Triple C here's

1019
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:58,559
Meryl Dory speaking on late line this

1020
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:01,200
was not an independent investigation

1021
00:40:05,329 --> 00:40:03,210
this was an investigation by an

1022
00:40:07,220 --> 00:40:05,339
organization that set out to support

1023
00:40:09,499 --> 00:40:07,230
government policy which is pro

1024
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:09,509
vaccinations we do not agree that the H

1025
00:40:12,980 --> 00:40:11,730
Triple C has any jurisdiction over us

1026
00:40:15,019 --> 00:40:12,990
and we have been telling this from the

1027
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:15,029
very beginning and we are seeking legal

1028
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:17,130
advice on this issue the Commission

1029
00:40:22,099 --> 00:40:19,440
focus chiefly on issues raised by Ken

1030
00:40:25,609 --> 00:40:22,109
MacLeod in its investigation and use the

1031
00:40:27,799 --> 00:40:25,619
avian website as a source in the report

1032
00:40:30,529 --> 00:40:27,809
they focus on a post called ten reasons

1033
00:40:33,230 --> 00:40:30,539
why parents question vaccination which

1034
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:33,240
consists of such statements as vaccines

1035
00:40:37,549 --> 00:40:35,609
have never been tested vaccines contain

1036
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:37,559
toxic additives and heavy metals and

1037
00:40:43,099 --> 00:40:39,630
vaccines do not necessarily protect

1038
00:40:44,839 --> 00:40:43,109
against infectious diseases they asked

1039
00:40:47,539 --> 00:40:44,849
mrs. Dory to provide evidence for all

1040
00:40:49,249 --> 00:40:47,549
these claims the Commission concluded in

1041
00:40:51,319 --> 00:40:49,259
their final report that of the

1042
00:40:53,539 --> 00:40:51,329
references provided by mrs. story in

1043
00:40:55,069 --> 00:40:53,549
support of these claims many were not

1044
00:40:56,839 --> 00:40:55,079
relevant she was guilty of

1045
00:40:58,789 --> 00:40:56,849
cherry-picking or a meeting data to

1046
00:41:02,239 --> 00:40:58,799
support her claims and other information

1047
00:41:05,180 --> 00:41:02,249
she provided was demonstrably false the

1048
00:41:06,859 --> 00:41:05,190
report states the avian has selectively

1049
00:41:08,359 --> 00:41:06,869
quoted information to suggest

1050
00:41:11,359 --> 00:41:08,369
vaccinations against meningococcal

1051
00:41:14,539 --> 00:41:11,369
disease has been ineffective when there

1052
00:41:16,339 --> 00:41:14,549
is no evidence of this and the avian

1053
00:41:18,289 --> 00:41:16,349
claims that vaccination is linked with a

1054
00:41:20,809 --> 00:41:18,299
range of long-term side effects however

1055
00:41:22,999 --> 00:41:20,819
has provided no evidence to support this

1056
00:41:24,769 --> 00:41:23,009
so the Commission has recommended that

1057
00:41:26,779 --> 00:41:24,779
the avian include an appropriate

1058
00:41:29,289 --> 00:41:26,789
disclaimer in a prominent position on

1059
00:41:31,729 --> 00:41:29,299
its website which should state the

1060
00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:31,739
avians purpose is to provide information

1061
00:41:36,529 --> 00:41:34,440
against vaccination in order to balance

1062
00:41:38,749 --> 00:41:36,539
what it believes is a substantial amount

1063
00:41:41,989 --> 00:41:38,759
of pro vaccination information available

1064
00:41:43,970 --> 00:41:41,999
elsewhere point to the information

1065
00:41:46,729 --> 00:41:43,980
provided should not be read as medical

1066
00:41:48,650 --> 00:41:46,739
advice and 3 the decision about whether

1067
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:48,660
or not to vaccinate should be made in

1068
00:41:53,569 --> 00:41:50,249
consultation with a healthcare provider

1069
00:41:55,970 --> 00:41:53,579
and if the avian refuses to comply with

1070
00:41:58,970 --> 00:41:55,980
this recommendation the H Triple C will

1071
00:42:01,039 --> 00:41:58,980
issue a public statement so when I first

1072
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:01,049
read of the findings of the H Triple C I

1073
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:02,930
was initially disappointed

1074
00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:05,240
some might say a directive to issue a

1075
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:07,430
disclaimer simply constitutes a slap on

1076
00:42:12,130 --> 00:42:10,400
the wrist well maybe it does but since

1077
00:42:14,589 --> 00:42:12,140
this story has spread across the webos

1078
00:42:16,359 --> 00:42:14,599
fear an unexpected result has emerged

1079
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:16,369
and one that makes me very pleased

1080
00:42:22,569 --> 00:42:19,910
indeed everywhere across the subsequent

1081
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:22,579
media coverage the avn is now being

1082
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:24,410
referred to as an anti-vaccination

1083
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:27,170
network now regular listeners will shrug

1084
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:29,359
and say sure we already knew they were

1085
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:31,670
anti-vaccine but what you may not know

1086
00:42:35,980 --> 00:42:33,530
is that many people especially

1087
00:42:40,059 --> 00:42:35,990
vulnerable non-science educated parents

1088
00:42:42,190 --> 00:42:40,069
and the media did not know this so like

1089
00:42:43,930 --> 00:42:42,200
the majority of anti-vaccine groups the

1090
00:42:45,579 --> 00:42:43,940
avn have gone to great lengths to

1091
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:45,589
conceal their true beliefs from the

1092
00:42:50,799 --> 00:42:49,010
public and especially from the media so

1093
00:42:52,990 --> 00:42:50,809
their rhetoric generally consists of we

1094
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:53,000
are pro-choice we provide a balance we

1095
00:42:57,790 --> 00:42:55,760
are pro information here's what Meryl

1096
00:43:00,819 --> 00:42:57,800
Dory had to say about this a few days

1097
00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:00,829
ago I is your organization Merle Dory

1098
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:03,200
against vaccination dennis is in a

1099
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:05,210
snapshot just give us the the thumbnail

1100
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:06,800
if you would well Marie I hate to

1101
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:08,450
correct you but I'm going to have to go

1102
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:11,089
home we're not against vaccination we

1103
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:13,040
simply provide the balance of

1104
00:43:17,349 --> 00:43:15,410
information when most people go to their

1105
00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:17,359
doctor or their council clinic they're

1106
00:43:21,220 --> 00:43:19,190
only told one side of the story and

1107
00:43:22,990 --> 00:43:21,230
vaccination is a medical procedure and

1108
00:43:25,359 --> 00:43:23,000
they need to get both sides so you've

1109
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:25,369
probe AXA nation we're pro choice we're

1110
00:43:29,289 --> 00:43:27,650
pro information and pro-choice we never

1111
00:43:31,630 --> 00:43:29,299
tell anyone that they should or should

1112
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:31,640
not vaccinate we simply say that they

1113
00:43:36,099 --> 00:43:34,130
should make an informed choice more

1114
00:43:38,109 --> 00:43:36,109
pro-choice comments from Merrill and she

1115
00:43:41,559 --> 00:43:38,119
talks about her Australian skeptic spent

1116
00:43:43,839 --> 00:43:41,569
spoon award in 2009 which vaccines do

1117
00:43:47,140 --> 00:43:43,849
you think are good then strength at all

1118
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:47,150
vaccines are up to the parents and that

1119
00:43:51,490 --> 00:43:48,710
wasn't what i asked there wasn't what

1120
00:43:52,569 --> 00:43:51,500
which vaccines good this was the point I

1121
00:43:55,450 --> 00:43:52,579
think the skeptic formatting that you've

1122
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:55,460
never actually said which vaccine is

1123
00:43:59,440 --> 00:43:57,170
worthwhile it's which scientific design

1124
00:44:01,329 --> 00:43:59,450
vaccine is good worthwhile not it is not

1125
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:01,339
my role nor is it the role of the

1126
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:03,200
Australian vaccination network to tell

1127
00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:05,599
anyone what they should or should not do

1128
00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:08,270
when it comes to vaccination interesting

1129
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:10,280
because this contrasts quite sharply

1130
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:12,650
with comments made by Merrill back in

1131
00:44:16,730 --> 00:44:15,450
January 2010 writing to her yard

1132
00:44:20,570 --> 00:44:16,740
who group after the Haiti earthquake

1133
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:20,580
disaster she wrote on message number 44

1134
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:23,760
295 I would like to donate to the

1135
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:25,770
efforts to help in Haiti but I don't

1136
00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:27,510
want any of my money going towards

1137
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,390
vaccines so that Red Cross and UNICEF

1138
00:44:34,580 --> 00:44:32,880
are out does anyone know of an

1139
00:44:38,510 --> 00:44:34,590
organization doing work on the ground

1140
00:44:41,450 --> 00:44:38,520
there helping without vaccines some kind

1141
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:41,460
of pro-choice message Meryl and then

1142
00:44:46,010 --> 00:44:43,890
there's this one there will come a time

1143
00:44:48,110 --> 00:44:46,020
and I pray to God it will happen in my

1144
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:48,120
lifetime when those who have pushed

1145
00:44:52,670 --> 00:44:50,460
vaccines upon innocent helpless babies

1146
00:44:54,980 --> 00:44:52,680
doctors pharmaceutical companies

1147
00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:54,990
government officials will be proven to

1148
00:44:59,210 --> 00:44:57,510
have lied and cheated these instruments

1149
00:45:02,870 --> 00:44:59,220
of death into our children's blood

1150
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:02,880
stream so instruments of death doesn't

1151
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:05,010
really sound like a pro-choice pro

1152
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:07,890
information message to me and neither

1153
00:45:13,070 --> 00:45:10,110
does the t-shirts that the avn tell on

1154
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:13,080
their website showing the slogan love

1155
00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:16,170
them protect them never inject them but

1156
00:45:20,510 --> 00:45:18,390
Meryl knows that publicly showing a face

1157
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:20,520
of anti-vaccination would not make you

1158
00:45:25,790 --> 00:45:22,640
popular with the media or with parents

1159
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:25,800
she even said so in july two thousand

1160
00:45:30,410 --> 00:45:27,330
and nine when she wrote to her yahoo

1161
00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:30,420
group while we are already seen as rabid

1162
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:32,460
idiotic fringe dwellers by so many in

1163
00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:34,650
the mainstream it does our argument no

1164
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:36,660
good at all to bring in conspiracy

1165
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:38,490
theories which though we may subscribe

1166
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:41,010
to them are unprovable so it is

1167
00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:42,690
incredibly refreshing to see the

1168
00:45:47,630 --> 00:45:44,910
credulity gone from the media with

1169
00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:47,640
respect to the avn only a few months ago

1170
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:50,220
the avn were unquestionably called upon

1171
00:45:55,010 --> 00:45:52,640
to offer the other side of the story

1172
00:45:58,250 --> 00:45:55,020
whenever there was a new story about

1173
00:46:00,680 --> 00:45:58,260
vaccinations so Merrill is starting to

1174
00:46:04,310 --> 00:46:00,690
lose her public face of pro-choice and

1175
00:46:06,290 --> 00:46:04,320
pro in firm ation a quick perusal of the

1176
00:46:07,970 --> 00:46:06,300
internet finds headlines about this

1177
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:07,980
story that all use the term

1178
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:11,040
anti-vaccination here's a few have come

1179
00:46:16,690 --> 00:46:14,490
across in the last 24 hours anti-vaccine

1180
00:46:18,830 --> 00:46:16,700
group wrapped for false information

1181
00:46:21,890 --> 00:46:18,840
anti-vaccine group accused of harassing

1182
00:46:24,590 --> 00:46:21,900
parents top dr. Baxter's claimer for

1183
00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:24,600
anti-vaccination site warning order for

1184
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:28,440
anti-vaccine website and even our light

1185
00:46:30,860 --> 00:46:29,280
and fluffy more

1186
00:46:33,050 --> 00:46:30,870
television presenter kerri-anne

1187
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:33,060
kennerley appears to have turned on

1188
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:36,090
merrill in an e-newsletter to her yahoo

1189
00:46:41,540 --> 00:46:39,930
group merrill described how turns out

1190
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:41,550
none of the questions they read to me

1191
00:46:46,130 --> 00:46:43,770
last night was actually asked and carrie

1192
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:46,140
Ann asked me twice why we were

1193
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:50,280
anti-vaccine ! here's Merrill getting a

1194
00:46:56,030 --> 00:46:53,850
grilling on radio to ue in Sydney are

1195
00:46:57,410 --> 00:46:56,040
you medically qualified Meryl I am not

1196
00:46:59,240 --> 00:46:57,420
medically qualified but I've been

1197
00:47:01,520 --> 00:46:59,250
researching this issue for well over 20

1198
00:47:03,230 --> 00:47:01,530
years so you're happy to put your lack

1199
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:03,240
of medical qualifications and 20 years

1200
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,560
of research up against the body of

1201
00:47:08,060 --> 00:47:06,720
medical opinion it says vaccinations a

1202
00:47:09,590 --> 00:47:08,070
hell of a good idea for someone that

1203
00:47:11,390 --> 00:47:09,600
says you like freedom of speech and

1204
00:47:13,460 --> 00:47:11,400
choice you're very proactive against

1205
00:47:15,170 --> 00:47:13,470
vaccinating no I'm not well you are your

1206
00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:15,180
argument is stating that I don't know

1207
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:17,430
how you get that I am very much in favor

1208
00:47:21,350 --> 00:47:18,930
of people being able to make informed

1209
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:21,360
choice if it is a medical procedure what

1210
00:47:24,890 --> 00:47:23,040
on earth gives you any sort of

1211
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:24,900
qualification to make any informed

1212
00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:27,300
comment on this at all well 20 years of

1213
00:47:30,940 --> 00:47:29,190
researching able big deals when you use

1214
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:30,950
a research you mean give me a break

1215
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:34,290
Japanese can I just ask you about the

1216
00:47:37,490 --> 00:47:35,940
qualifications of the group the avian

1217
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:37,500
and what they stand for you would know

1218
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:39,390
you'd know the name of a guy called

1219
00:47:42,830 --> 00:47:41,010
andrew wakefield i do know andrew

1220
00:47:46,070 --> 00:47:42,840
wakefield do you guys still support him

1221
00:47:48,260 --> 00:47:46,080
we support any research no no no no no

1222
00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:48,270
do you still support him do I support

1223
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:49,710
him I don't give him any money if that's

1224
00:47:54,260 --> 00:47:52,290
what you know but verbally you support

1225
00:47:56,540 --> 00:47:54,270
him his ID because he was struck off the

1226
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:56,550
United Kingdom medical register even

1227
00:47:59,240 --> 00:47:58,170
struck off the medical register and he's

1228
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,250
only allowed now to practice in the

1229
00:48:02,930 --> 00:48:01,440
United States of America no he doesn't

1230
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:02,940
practice he's never been a practicing

1231
00:48:08,030 --> 00:48:05,130
doctor he's an academic and he is still

1232
00:48:09,860 --> 00:48:08,040
in academic and um you know we know if

1233
00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:09,870
many cases where people have been struck

1234
00:48:13,790 --> 00:48:11,940
off because they simply didn't agree

1235
00:48:15,830 --> 00:48:13,800
with what the medical community filed

1236
00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:15,840
these duties as a responsible consultant

1237
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:17,700
the accent had acted against the

1238
00:48:21,140 --> 00:48:19,410
interests of his patients oh no I'm

1239
00:48:23,060 --> 00:48:21,150
sorry that's not what would fan oh no no

1240
00:48:24,830 --> 00:48:23,070
no that's why I'm quoting from the

1241
00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:24,840
United Kingdom medical register and the

1242
00:48:28,490 --> 00:48:27,180
reason why he was struck off okay what

1243
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:28,500
is this got to do with the aged Tripel

1244
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:30,420
see if I can well I'll tell you what

1245
00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:31,890
it's got to do with is the fact that the

1246
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:35,760
avian you supported him in the sense

1247
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:37,890
that you disagreed with what the United

1248
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:39,450
Kingdom medical register deed and I'm

1249
00:48:42,349 --> 00:48:40,710
not the only person there

1250
00:48:44,329 --> 00:48:42,359
is an organization in the United States

1251
00:48:45,710 --> 00:48:44,339
called the American Association but it

1252
00:48:47,390 --> 00:48:45,720
goes back to what Murray was just saying

1253
00:48:50,089 --> 00:48:47,400
what qualifications do you have to

1254
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:50,099
disagree with the healthcare Complaints

1255
00:48:53,660 --> 00:48:51,690
Commission here in Australia and the

1256
00:48:55,579 --> 00:48:53,670
United Kingdom medical registry all of a

1257
00:48:58,730 --> 00:48:55,589
sudden what you're saying is far

1258
00:49:01,130 --> 00:48:58,740
superior than what these two credible

1259
00:49:02,810 --> 00:49:01,140
worldwide organizations are Mary but

1260
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:02,820
you're putting words in my mouth I'm not

1261
00:49:07,460 --> 00:49:05,520
on to starting a fact yeah but you do

1262
00:49:08,990 --> 00:49:07,470
realize something like smallpox doesn't

1263
00:49:10,579 --> 00:49:09,000
officially exist anymore except in a

1264
00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:10,589
scientific glad because vaccine has

1265
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:12,510
wiped it out across the world I'm sorry

1266
00:49:16,130 --> 00:49:14,250
small talks was not wiped out by

1267
00:49:20,270 --> 00:49:16,140
vaccination because in the last 30 years

1268
00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:20,280
ago Rock I'd the world wide vaccination

1269
00:49:25,849 --> 00:49:22,790
rate against smallpox is below 10 p ok

1270
00:49:27,980 --> 00:49:25,859
I'll inform the highly qualified doctor

1271
00:49:29,599 --> 00:49:27,990
that gave me that information and i'll

1272
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:29,609
leave the final word with the guys from

1273
00:49:35,540 --> 00:49:32,609
tue as Merrill's media darling house of

1274
00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:35,550
cards comes crashing down and until next

1275
00:49:40,070 --> 00:49:38,609
time this has been dr. heo reports go to

1276
00:49:42,530 --> 00:49:40,080
assume the radius time also yesterday to

1277
00:49:45,170 --> 00:49:42,540
we spoke to merrill dory the australian

1278
00:49:47,570 --> 00:49:45,180
vaccine network at in my view it should

1279
00:49:49,609 --> 00:49:47,580
be the australian anti-vaccine network

1280
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:49,619
but hair beaver does it by boy oh boy

1281
00:49:55,490 --> 00:49:51,650
did we have some email traffic on that

1282
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:55,500
far too many who are bashing us up to to

1283
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:57,330
share them all with you and thank you

1284
00:50:00,800 --> 00:49:58,770
for those emails bashing the tripe out

1285
00:50:04,849 --> 00:50:00,810
of us and we got just as many we got to

1286
00:50:06,890 --> 00:50:04,859
say as supporting us in opposing what

1287
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:06,900
Meryl Dory had to say yeah apparently

1288
00:50:10,849 --> 00:50:08,550
the David Pryor was saying to us there's

1289
00:50:12,740 --> 00:50:10,859
a a blog on the TV website you can get

1290
00:50:14,089 --> 00:50:12,750
on there and look at it but I wish I'd

1291
00:50:15,380 --> 00:50:14,099
seen this earlier one of our listeners

1292
00:50:16,820 --> 00:50:15,390
sent us through is she said you know

1293
00:50:18,170 --> 00:50:16,830
Meryl was saying you know we want to

1294
00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:18,180
give people choice and I'll never advise

1295
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:20,220
people not to get vaccinated yep quite

1296
00:50:23,630 --> 00:50:21,810
interesting enough and he sent this to

1297
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:23,640
me it's a photograph of a t-shirt you

1298
00:50:26,810 --> 00:50:25,680
can buy on their website right and it

1299
00:50:29,140 --> 00:50:26,820
says on the front of the t-shirt I'd

1300
00:50:32,599 --> 00:50:29,150
love them protect them never inject them

1301
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:32,609
right at my so what would that tell ya

1302
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:35,160
ya ya anyway I mean you got up seriously

1303
00:50:37,310 --> 00:50:36,330
you gotta have something wrong with the

1304
00:50:38,660 --> 00:50:37,320
upstairs if you don't go and get your

1305
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:38,670
children back snide I know that there

1306
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:40,050
have been dreadful things happen to some

1307
00:51:05,430 --> 00:50:42,000
kids guess what the more do things can

1308
00:51:09,729 --> 00:51:07,690
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1309
00:51:12,370 --> 00:51:09,739
zone and a big thank you to all those

1310
00:51:15,789 --> 00:51:12,380
people who came up to all of us at am in

1311
00:51:17,170 --> 00:51:15,799
Las Vegas to say hello it was so nice to

1312
00:51:20,499 --> 00:51:17,180
meet each and every one of you

1313
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:20,509
photographs taken a bit of a chat what a

1314
00:51:24,759 --> 00:51:22,640
fabulous time it was and a big thank you

1315
00:51:27,849 --> 00:51:24,769
to Chris who drove all the way from

1316
00:51:29,229 --> 00:51:27,859
Texas and then I helped us get down to

1317
00:51:31,479 --> 00:51:29,239
the strip by night Chris if you're

1318
00:51:33,219 --> 00:51:31,489
listening we were meant to leave you a

1319
00:51:34,690 --> 00:51:33,229
little token of our appreciation and all

1320
00:51:37,210 --> 00:51:34,700
the confusion of the last day we miss

1321
00:51:38,589 --> 00:51:37,220
that Chris from Texas contact the

1322
00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:38,599
skeptic zone and we can take it from

1323
00:51:44,319 --> 00:51:41,599
there also if you want to support the

1324
00:51:47,469 --> 00:51:44,329
skeptic zone of course you can donate or

1325
00:51:50,799 --> 00:51:47,479
subscribe but also I've put up for bid

1326
00:51:53,289 --> 00:51:50,809
the complete cosmos DVD series by carl

1327
00:51:54,940 --> 00:51:53,299
sagan its region 4 which is Australia

1328
00:51:57,609 --> 00:51:54,950
but I think anyone can really play it

1329
00:52:01,690 --> 00:51:57,619
anywhere if you have the right DVD

1330
00:52:03,999 --> 00:52:01,700
player it's signed by Pamela gay dr.

1331
00:52:07,390 --> 00:52:04,009
palagay the wonderful astronomer from

1332
00:52:09,009 --> 00:52:07,400
astronomy cast Phil Plait the bad

1333
00:52:12,009 --> 00:52:09,019
astronomer dr. Phil Plait has also

1334
00:52:14,529 --> 00:52:12,019
signed it and of course James Randi

1335
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:14,539
himself signed by James Randi who was a

1336
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good friend of the late Carl Sagan you

1337
00:52:20,709 --> 00:52:18,680
can check that out there i'll put a link

1338
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up on the skeptics own website or you

1339
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:24,140
can just run in a base search for cosmos

1340
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DVD well that's enough from me I think I

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need another cup of coffee now and until

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next week will we have some more

1343
00:52:37,509 --> 00:52:35,329
fantastic interviews from Tam Las Vegas

1344
00:52:41,710 --> 00:52:37,519
this is Richard saunas signing off from

1345
00:52:47,770 --> 00:52:43,750
you've been listening to the skeptic

1346
00:52:51,550 --> 00:52:47,780
zone visit our website at www skeptics

1347
00:52:54,050 --> 00:52:51,560
on TV for comments contacts and extra

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video reports